Landa wants you to hear la musica ...
Aug. 20th, 2010 07:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
linndechir1) go to a nice café in Berlin, with pictures from old movies on the walls and soft jazz music
2) order
3) don't forget the cream
4) take notebook
5) write
Result?
After half an hour I decided that porn is boring, that I'd rather have naked Hellstrom with a gun, and that Landa's voice sounds like a waltz by Strauss. I'm not quite sure what happens next.
What follows is a long rambling rant about Landa/Hellstrom, about their character dynamics, about Hellstrom's characterisation, and about the possibility of a chapter three of La musica delle parole. I'm not sure anyone still cares about this. But I had to write down my thoughts to get some order into them, and I thought I'd just post them here in case anyone is still interested in the pairing. If not, you don't want to ...
I finally realised why I couldn't write chapter three of La musica delle parole for such a long time. It's actually very simple: La musica was my very first (to my knowledge, THE very first ever) Landa/Hellstrom-fic. We don't know an awful lot about Hellstrom in the movie, and my fanon about him was still relatively limited. I hadn't decided yet what I wanted to do with the character when I wrote part one of La musica. So Hellstrom was actually a rather weak, pale character in this fic - it all revolved around Landa, Landa was the centre of Hellstrom's and therefore of the reader's attention. I honestly didn't give that much thought to who Hellstrom was at that point, because I focused on writing Landa. I wanted to do justice to probably one of the greatest characters ever written and played in a movie.
I hesitated for a long time before I wrote part two, mainly because the response to part one was so overwhelming. People jumped at me from everywhere, told me it was one of the best fics they had ever read and probably the best fic I had ever written, told me that I really knew how to write Landa, told me that I had made them love the pairing. It was intimidating. Still, I went and kicked myself into writing part two, and few things ever made me as happy as all the reviews I got from people who were not one bit disappointed by the sequel. I know this sounds really arrogant and self-centred, but La musica is one of the few things I've written that I'm really proud of (I usually think most of my older fics are shit). I'm proud of writing the first fic for a pairing, a fic that was apparently good enough to make quite a few other people like it - especially since it was not a very obivous pairing in the movie.
I promised everyone to write a third part, because part two had a very open ending that DEMANDED a sequel. But in addition to the anxiety, the fear of disappointing, of writing a third part that didn't live up to the first two, I had another problem: I had no idea what I wanted to do. I knew how to begin part three, but I had no idea how to end it, not even roughly, I didn't know where their relationship was going, didn't even know if it would continue at all. So, instead, I decided to explore a few other possibilities with this pairing. I wrote several other fics, played around with the characters, even completely switched their character dynamics in Five Senses.
Most of all I gave more thought to Hellstrom, who slowly turned into one of my favourite characters ever. I came up with a huge, detailed background story for him (while I could never decide what to do with Landa's past; I have many ideas, but nothing definitive; loose ideas, detached scenes without context, but no coherent background story). Hellstrom became one of these characters for me who are a pleasure to write because I just KNOW how they think. Landa was always a bit difficult - Landa is incredibly complex, Landa is nothing like me; I always had to think about what Landa would do next, what Landa might say, how he might say it. Hellstrom? He just writes himself. I guess I'd be downplaying my characterisation if I called him a self-insert (although at least his musical tastes are an obvious self-insert ;)), but I just understand him a lot better than I understand Landa. It's like ... I can play certain pieces on the piano without even thinking about them, and others demand constant attention to every single note.
What's the problem?, you might think. Isn't it great that I worked so much on Hellstrom's characterisation? Well, yes, in itself that's a good thing, but unfortunately Hellstrom as I see him now isn't much like Hellstrom in La musica anymore. He's a bit too spineless, too easily intimidated for my taste. Of course, Landa IS terrifying, but I see Hellstrom by now as a much stronger character than I did initially. I've come to see Hellstrom as Landa's equal, his mirror, the one person who can play Landa's game (almost) as well as himself, the one person whom Landa can't fuck over with a smile, a glance and a calculated verbal stab. Landa's superiority is mainly based on the fact that he's older, more experienced, and higher-ranking than Hellstrom - not on the fact that he really is more intelligent or more cunning or more manipulative than Hellstrom. They're very similar in some regards, and at the same time different enough to surprise each other.
TLDR: I feel like I neglected in La musica that Hellstrom is more for Landa than just an entertaining plaything. Landa is deeply fascinated by Hellstrom, because Hellstrom is one of the few people who could possibly be a danger to Landa. And someone of Landa's intellect must occasionally be bored by the stupidity of the world. He'd appreciate someone like Hellstrom.
I just CAN'T write Hellstrom anymore the way I wrote him in La musica. I feel like I'd be writing a spineless, meek shadow of movie-badass Major Creeper (when is the last time I read that epic nickname? IB-Fandom, I miss you!). And now that I finally know what the problem is, I'll have to figure out how to write Hellstrom in part thee of La musica: for the sake of continuity, he basically has to be the same character as the guy in the first two chapters, but for the sake of my sanity (and of better characterisation) I have to twist him a little to give him something like a spine and a brain. Don't worry, he'll still be terrified, he'll still be far from the Hellstrom who scared Landa shitless in Five Senses. But I want to balance their dynamics a little. Landa will still be superior, because otherwise it would just make no sense after the first two chapters. But I need a more active Hellstrom. I need a Hellstrom who is more than just the looking glass through which the reader sees Landa and thinks, "omfg he's scary, but omfg he's also hot!"
I need a Hellstrom who gives Landa a good fight. Not a physical one, but an intellectual and emotional one. Because if he doesn't, Landa will lose interest and get rid of him. Landa got what he want - if Hellstrom wants to stay alive, he'd better convince Landa that he's still more interesting to be around than any other person in Paris.
If that means quoting Schiller, all the better.Landa quoting Baudelaire would be even more epic, but I don't know how to fit THAT in.
I don't think anyone even bothered to read this ... if you did, thanks for your time. Any ideas? Any feedback? Other than, "Linn, stop whining, stoping rambling pretentious shit, and just write"?
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no subject
Date: 2010-08-22 12:05 pm (UTC)I love your musings on these characters, and I'm going back to read Parts I & II in preparation for Part III, and I agree with everything you said about how your Hellstrom has evolved since I & II were written.
There's a point in every mentored relationship where the one mentored becomes a peer to the mentor--and it sounds as though that's what we'll see in Part III. These two men are indeed equals, the age difference being the primary difference between them.
We're probably polar opposites in terms of where each character takes us. For me, Landa writes himself, and Dieterchen requires more of my attention.I do believe that what I have learned of your Hellstrom backstory is spot-on, particularly with regards to the early loss of his father, and I'm actually fairly faithful to that backstory. For my part, I have a fully-conceived backstory for Landa that emerged in my hetfic. My Landa was first touched by an older boy at age six, had distant, self-absorbed Viennese parents who sent him to boarding school at age 8, where he had his first sexual experiences with other boys; lost his heterosexual virginity to the mother of a schoolmate when he was sixteen; has always been bisexual and prior to Hellstrom has had numerous lovers, male and female, but only one serious relationship with another man, his tall, dark and handsome roommate Jürgen at university who rejected the SS to serve as an officer with the Wehrmacht, is married and has three children. These two long-time friends still sleep together when they occasionally meet for a visit. Jürgen is important because he's the only person Landa has ever loved, although he'll never admit to it. As far as he is concerned, they are two very close friends who just happen to have sex, and that's it. This relationship plays a significant part in my hetfic. There's a great deal more to this backstory, but this is just a summary.
I'm just delighted that you've renewed your interest in this pairing. A while back you said you felt you'd explored it as much as you wanted to, and that made me sad, because your Landa/Hellstrom slash has inspired a great many other writers here, including me.
I'm expecting there to be a new surge of interest in IB and new members in the fandoms now that it has debuted on Showtime here in the USA. People who didn't see it in the theater or on DVD are seeing it for the first time and getting hooked on it. It was hugely popular on Pay-Per-View and played there for months, and it's already getting more airtime than Showtime's other recent debuts.
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Date: 2010-08-22 03:00 pm (UTC)I'm glad that my rambling about how my Hellstrom has evolved makes sense. I think what's happening in part three is that both Landa and Hellstrom realise that something has to change: part I & II were a cat&mouse-game that nobody can play forever. Landa knows that if he keeps this up, he won't have a mouse left. I don't think I want to continue La musica after part III, but I want to finish this fic. I want to end it in a satisfying way.
I wrote a first draft of part III today. It's extremely rough and consists mainly of music geekery and literatary allusions. Don't ask. ;) No, but what's happening is basically that Landa realises that he has to meet Hellstrom halfway if he doesn't want to lose him.
With Landa, I have a very clear idea of what kind of a social background he comes from, what his childhood was like etc. (Watching the movie version of Young Torless was very inspiring - now I ended up giving bb!Landa an older boyfriend/protector who taught him his first lessons about being a scheming, manipulative bastard.) But details about his adult past? I can't even decide what he was doing before he joined the SS. Sure, he was in the army during WWI, but I do't see him as someone who spent his whole life as an officer.
What probably fascinates me most with Landa is his motivation to join the SS. If I go with the version in which he and Dieter met when Dieter was still a student, it's easy: Hellstrom somehow convinced him, or rather Landa dragged along to look out for his little boy. Same goes for the AU (which will probably never get written) in which Landa is Dieter's father. But apart from that? Just Landa on his own? He's not the kind of man to join a party led by Uncle Adolf. And unlike young Dieter, he probably never was idealistic enough to think that the Nazis would be good for Germany (not to mention that Landa is about as patriotic as a tree).
So basically I have a bunch of different background stories for Landa, and I can't decide which one fits best. Landa's past is, to me, more a collection of incidents than an ongoing storyline. But, to be honest, that's not a real problem for me. It was the same in Forgotten Realms fandom, with Jarlaxle, who is in the books one of the most mysterious characters EVER - and it was actually a lot more fitting to write him like that instead of forcing a detailed background story on him. So, my Landa is allowed to remain mysterious, because it's the only way I can write him without breaking my brain. ;)
Did I say that about Landa/Hellstrom? I only remember saying that about Heydrich/Schellenberg. But, yes, I felt at some point that I had no new ideas for Landa/Hellstrom, that my fics were getting repetitive, and I always thought that a writer should know when to stop instead of inflicting second-rate stuff on his readers just to publish something. But I really want to give La musica a proper ending. And since Hellstrom, my dearest alter ego, is back in my head, I might just write more. Maybe he just went into hiding for the past few months because it was so hot. I'm sure he didn't like that. ;)
Mhm, that would be nice, but I don't really think so. The way I see it, IB-fandom is pretty much dead. Most good writers disappeared one by one, and the occasional posts make you think, "mhm, who cares?" rather than "OMFG awesome new fic!" I'm not optimistic enough to think that's going to change. But who knows, maybe you're right. Let's hope for it. Landa and his Dieterchen need more love.
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Date: 2010-08-24 02:44 am (UTC)You silly girl. ;-) It's pretty clear from Tarantino that Landa was a private investigator before he joined the SS, and he joined specifically to be a part of the Sicherheistdienst because at heart he is a detective, a predator of people in both his professional and personal lives. Like Hellstrom, he's a scheming opportunist; he could care less about the party or the SS except for what they can offer him: prestige and power. Money doesn't motivate him, he's obviously from a wealthy background; otherwise he would have asked for more than a Standartenführer's military pension from the OSS general with whom he made the deal in IB. Obviously he's smart enough to have stashed a significant part of the family fortune in a swiss bank.
He did indeed fight in WWI, but had not been a military officer all his life. He started working as a common police detective partly to spite his father, who had hoped he'd follow him into the law, but also because he loves to solve puzzles, especially those that involve people. He quickly grew impatient with the bureaucracy of the Vienna Police, so he became a private investigator to the wealthy, tracking down everything from wayward sons and eloping daughters to business embezzlers, all with the promise to keep everything hush-hush. In doing so he amassed so many secrets that he gained an enormous amount of power in Viennese society. That's what got him into the SS and the SD in particular.
In my alternate universe, he doesn't molder away on Nantucket Island when he comes to the US; Hollywood decides to make a film about Operation Kino, the colorful and charming Landa is chosen to play himself. He then has a brief foray in Hollywood during which he plays a number of villains in films, and his investigative skills are called upon to solve a number of Hollywood mysteries and scandals. He abandons his Hollywood career when he solves the infamous Black Dahlia murder, and returns to his work as a private investigator, becoming involved in the anticommunist witchhunts of postwar America and gaining power and prestige in Washington DC. Then he's hired by a certain Joseph Kennedy to mop up any trails left by his two philandering sons, John and Bobby, especially after the death of a certain Marilyn Monroe...you get the picture. He eventually dies in the castle-like mansion on the famous 17-Mile-Drive in Carmel, California, taking a great many secrets from postwar America with him.
Anyway, that's the backstory and post-canon that make the most sense to me in terms of Landa's character.
You're right, it was the Heydrich/Schellenberg coupling that you felt you'd explored fully, and am I glad I was wrong!!! As for the IB fandom being dead? We'll see. All I know is that not a month goes by when I don't pick up a new reader (one that leaves a review or comment, that is) on either LJ or fanfiction.net, and the film's been out for over a year now. I believe it will be an even bigger hit on premium cable. It's Tarantino, after all, it's brilliantly written, and it has great characters. :-)
no subject
Date: 2010-08-26 11:25 pm (UTC)In the movie itself it doesn't state explicitly what EXACTLY Landa did before the war. And I honestly only treat the movie as canon. The script and other info are nice to know about, but I don't treat that as canon information I have to respect. Of course he was some sort of detective, but how exactly that worked out ... I prefer to keep several possibilities in my mind, and use whatever seems more fitting for the fic I'm writing.
What does fascinate me is his Austrian background. Even though I don't see him as a patriot (neither Austrian nor German), it must have meant -something- for him to see the huge, powerful country he grew up in (singing the Kaiserlied and everything) being reduced to a tiny country nobody cared about. In terms of political changes, WWI affected Austria even more than Germany. He can't have been indifferent about that. And even if he doesn't have all this "omfg we Germans are so much better than everyone else, we should all live in one country!", I can imagine that he liked the idea of being part of something bigger and more powerful again than this tiny little Austria that was left after WWI.
Also, I can see Landa studying something really pointlessly intellectual before he got into the whole detective business. But either way, I agree with what you said about him amassing loads of secrets and thereby gaining power in Viennese society. So much. ^^
Haha, my post-canon story for Landa is a bit different. I don't think he would mind really retiring on Nantucket Island, but he'd enjoy his status as war hero, and while I don't exactly see him in a movie, he'd definitely love to pop up at military and society gatherings to shake hands and have people admire him. Oh, and of course to meet Aldo there - because he'd LOVE making poor Aldo uncomfortable (because Aldo would have to behave in public ;)).
Dieter, the hopeless workaholic, who in my version of course survived and came with Landa to America, would have a lot more trouble not having his dearest darling Gestapo anymore. He'd probably end up cooperating with the CIA or whatever - he wouldn't like him, but getting back at the Russians would be too much fun. ;)
To be honest, though, I much prefer my Heydrich-took-over-AU, in which Landa ends up being HSSPF in Vienna and after Müller's retirement probably Leiter of the entire Gestapo (because Heydrich thought Landa was just being lazy in Vienna), with Hellstrom as his adjutant. Obviously, Hellstrom would to most of the work, because I see Landa as a fundamentelly lazy person. He loves puzzles, he loves challenges, but he hates -work- in itself, he considers it dull.
... end of rant. I'm too tired to reread it to check if it makes sense/if it's full of hilarious typos.
Yep, that was Heydrich/Schellenberg. With the added problem of me feeling somewhat uncomfortable writing about Heydrich because it's so personal for me.
I see your point, but my experience with other fandoms is that most new fans are relatively passive: sure, they read fic and leave comments, and sometimes bring new ideas and occasionally even a fic or two. But that rarely leads to a real revival of the fandom. There are rarely many new fics, and the old writers rarely come back.
no subject
Date: 2010-08-27 02:52 am (UTC)No, neither the script nor film says anything pre- or post-war about Landa. But in many interviews with Christoph or Quentin, there has been a lot of emphasis on Landa's status as a detective being much more significant than the fact that he's a Nazi. The whole pipe business, for example. In one interview Quentin revealed he suggested to Christoph that perhaps Landa didn't smoke a pipe at all, but found out that Perrier LaPadite did smoke one, and therefore purchased the pipe just as a prop to be used in the interrogation. Christoph apparently heartily agreed with this suggestion! So I believe that both actor and writer/director truly see him as a very experienced detective, and it's clear that's how the character sees himself. After all, he does say, "I'm a detective. A damned good detective. Finding people is my specialty, so naturally I worked for the Nazis finding people."
I'm also partly borrowing from primus_silie, who has written three pretty good chapters of a postwar Landa detective fic. I beta-ed those chapters for her, and I loved the way she had him rebelling against his father by refusing to go into the family law firm but into detective work instead. During the beta process she and I talked about Landa the detective. and that was when I first conceived my post-canon view, which combines my loves for film, Landa and Hollywood with my fascination with postwar twentieth century America.
And it just makes total sense that in one way or another he would have gone into private investigation and amassed so many secrets that he gained power in Viennese society. I'm particularly happy that you agree with this last point!
Like you, I do see there being some sense of resentment of Austria's reduced status and subsequent subjugation to Germany. You're right, that had to have had some subconscious impact on him. After all, the Austro-Hungarian empire was pretty f***ing magnificent. But, like you, I just don't see him as having any form of patriotism or allegiance whatsoever. I think he'd consider that sentimental crap. No, it's all about Landa, just as it's all about him in all his personal relationships. He's an opportunist through and through, and if betraying king and country gets him what he wants, he'll go for it.
Now I know both you and Machiavelli Imp have talked about a Heydrich-takes-over AU, which I would love to see either or both of you do at some point. As a Jew, however, I can't help but wonder what the heck does Heydrich do with the Jews and all the other people who were systematically liquidated? Can Heydrich at least release them and send the Jews to Israel and the Gypsies to Madagascar, and let everybody else go home? Of course I don't know enough about your concepts of this AU. Does it assume that Germany conquered Russia? Or are new territories established? And what about the possibility that AU Germany would form a coalition with the Americans and British to conquer the Soviet Union and end communism? I consider this to be a very real AU possibility, since there were legions of people on both sides who believed that the British and Americans should have been on Germany's side in taking Russia. And there were hundreds of former Nazis who worked with the CIA against communism.
Which brings me back to my postwar canon. It's only natural that Landa (and Hellstrom, if he did survive) would be actively involved with the CIA and the FBI during the communist witchhunts, which is part of my postwar canon. This also offers some intriguing possibilities in terms of their relationship with the post-war community of deeply-closeted gay conservatives in DC. What would Landa have thought of Roy Cohn, for example? I imagine Landa would find they had much in common, but he'd still consider Cohn a detestable little worm. :-)
Ah, fandom. There have been a few trickles of new stories lately, and look at you, you're coming back! ;-D
no subject
Date: 2010-08-27 03:11 am (UTC)I always thought of it like that, even before I read that interview. I know that they had initially planned to give landa that pipe in several scenes, but I'm glad they didn't. It's a lot better this way.
He does. And I'm sure he regularly makes fun of Dieter and his very honest, genuine, even a bit naive (for young Dieter at least) patriotism. But, still, you can't help but feel some sort of deeper connection to the country and society you grew up in, and Landa is too intelligent to pretend all that doesn't matter one bit. He's ready to betray anything and anyone to get what he wants, but that doesn't mean he is completely indifferent to these things.
I actually tried to figure out something relatively realistic for this AU. Since it's so Heydrich-centric, it is really based on how I think Heydrich would have dealt with things. In short (because otherwise I'll be sitting here for the rest of the night typing ideas): he'll get rid of Hitler&co in some sort of Operation-Kino-like "accident". Probably around 1943. After Stalingrad he realised that something had to change. Then he'd get a ceasefire with both the Russians and the western Allies asap, and he'd probably hand Himmler to them on a gold plate and blame him for pretty much everything. (Insert tragic romance between Himmler and Wölffchen.) He'd probably get a team with people like Adolf Burger (in less communist) to forge him a bunch of new papers (What, Wannsee? Who said Heydrich ever was there? Allied propaganda.).
About the Jews: I'm not entirely sure how he would do that. The problem is that if he lets people escape, they will talk, and that won't help his attempts to make himself seem as the nicer alternative to Hitler&co. On the other hand, he'd just about love freeing them and sending them off to Israel or whatever and blame it all on big bad Himmler. He'd probably have Eichmann get rid of his traces, and then he'd get rid of Eichmann. I honestly don't know. In the end - with Heydrich, just assume the most rational way out, no matter how absurd or cold-hearted it may sound. Also, at this point, both the Russians and the Americans would probably have been rather glad to end a war that was still not -completely- lost for the Germans. (or rather: it was lost, but winning it would still cost the Allies a lot). Heydrich would probably have worked on a rapprochement with America and GB, but I doubt that he would have wanted another war with the Soviet Union anytime soon. Wars are expensive,and they don't help when you're trying to rebuild a country. I think he was aware of the fact that attacking Russia is just bloody stupid. If he wasn't, I just lost all respect for him. ;)
All of this probably makes no sense at all in this overly shortened version. But it's 5am, and obviously I haven't figured out everything myself yet. I'm no Heydrich. ;)
Yeah, trickles ... I can't remember the last time I read a really amazing IB-story. It's mostly het and weird Basterds pairings, no?
no subject
Date: 2010-08-28 11:45 pm (UTC)I felt the same way about Landa's pipe, too, before I saw that interview. It was just too obvious a reference to the cinematic Sherlock Holmes. And the fact that he never smoked it in any other scenes was of course revealing.
I agree that Landa could not be indifferent to the subjugation of his homeland after WWI. It had to have had an impact on him, and I believe his innate sense of superiority to the other Nazis around him speaks to this. Hell, it's even had an impact on Christoph. There was all that hoop-la-la in the press recently because he considers himself Austrian but his father was born in Germany so he's legally considered a German. Just this week an Austrian friend of mine told me he'd applied for citizenship and will officially become Austrian on October 1st. It makes sense when you consider that his German-born father died when he was eight, he was raised by his Austrian grandmother, and his mother still lives in Vienna.
I think your AU makes a lot of sense and is true to Heydrich. I won't get into the Wannsee issue--the transcript of the conference pretty much speaks for itself. There's a very good German film that follows the transcript to the letter but unfortunately, it was followed by a horrible British abortion with a bleached-blond Kenneth Branagh, of all people, as Heydrich--whatever you do, don't watch it after eating or you will vomit from pure outrage, as I nearly did.
It makes tremendous sense that Heydrich would make Himmler and Eichmann the fall guys for all the race-based slaughter. And I do love the idea of the tragic romance between Himmler and Wölffchen, which makes so much sense when you consider the latter's naked (forgive the obvious pun) adoration of his superior. These two were just made for each other. It's nerd love at its most supreme!
5 a.m. or no, what you say makes a lot of sense. Of course you're right about Heydrich's refusal to make an attempt, even with Allied support, to conquer the Soviet Union after Stalingrad. But how would he have dealt with the Soviet Union? Would he have been part of a cold war alliance with America and GB against them? I believe he was too clever to get enmeshed in such expensive nonsense and would have forged a separate pact with the Soviets that would involve divvying up various countries and territories, a la the Yalta Conference.
As you said, there are trickles of new fanfics...but none of them is really amazing except for the one that had Landa's ruminations when he finds his Dieterchen's body in La Louisianne--which ties in beautifully as far as supporting the most plausible motivation for his subsequent savage yet very intimate murder of Bridget. We never really have an explanation in the film for why the normally calm, cool and composed Landa would explode in such a way. This particular story makes the connection beautifully.
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Date: 2010-08-29 02:16 am (UTC)AFAIK, his father actually was German. Just being born in Germany (with foreign parents) wouldn't be enough to be German, legally. Anyway, that's just nitpicking. I read about that, too, and I really understand Christoph. You can't really get more Austrian than him, no matter where his father was from.
That would be one of Heydrich's many problems. All the documents and papers of the conference are pretty unambiguous, and it would take him a lot of work to talk/cheat/forge his way out of that.
*does not want to see Branagh as Heydrich* I don't think I want to see anyone as Heydrich. Except maybe August Diehl, who'd probably do an amazing job. (Yes, I've had that idea sneaking around in my head for so long it has almost started to make sense.)
Himmler/Wölffchen: Heydrich would probably not even want to get rid of Wölffchen, who's relatively smart and useful and likeable. But Wölffchen would never work for somebody who betrayed his beloved Heini. So either Heydrich would have to shut him up to, or - more likely, considering Wölffchen's weird sense of honour - Wölffchen would agree to retire and STFU because he knows, deep down, that Heydrich did the right thing. Or something. But epic, tragic romance either way.
I think Heydrich would try to stay as neutral as possible in the upcoming Cold War. Allying himself blindly with one of the two sides would have been just plain stupid, knowing that Germany would be the first battlefield if the war ever turned not-so-cold. He'd probably favour America and GB over the Soviet Union, but that wouldn't keep him from dealing with the Soviets in any ways he could get away with. Definitely dividing Poland and stuff like that. Not to mention that Heydrich would so want to keep his beloved Prague. ;)
Btw, that picture on your icon is probably one of my favourite Heydrich pics ever. Oh, and I just remembered - I finally found a picture that has both Heydrich AND Schellenberg (and several other guys). WOAAAAAAAH!!! It's not much, but it's better than nothing:
Can you find him? ;) (No, it's not the guy on the right who looks like he's trying to run away. ;) "Dear Allies, I was never in this picture!")
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Date: 2010-08-29 06:02 am (UTC)Oh, that was just too easy. How could I not instantly pinpoint that precious little Schellchen pout--especially when he's so obviously swooning over Heydrich? Poor Schellchen - he literally can't take his eyes off his hearthrob. He's the second one on the left hand side of the photo. :-)
That's interesting, I didn't know that one's parents had to be German for he or she to be legally so. Here in the USA you're American as long as you're born here, or born within American territory (such as military base overseas.) Now that everyone's shrieking about illegal immigrants there's a move afoot to change that. I had been adamantly against such a change, but you pointing the German policy has put it in a new light for me. Mainly, why the hell not change it? It would certainly shut up a lot of idiots!
You are absolutely correct, you DO NOT want to see Branagh as Heydrich. It's...so bad I can't even begin to cope with trying to describe it. Gusti would make a rather interesting Heydrich, I agree. But what does one do about that remarkable mouth with the big, juicy lips? Even my Heydrich doll didn't get the lips right, while every other aspect of the face is just about perfect. I really should take it out of the box and play with it, for goodness' sake! It's just that everything is so pristine-looking. I hate to destroy that calm repose. But at the same time, I so want to him to try on the other uniform. And play with his sword. If I ever get any money to spare again, I'm going to buy the Max Wünsche doll so he can have a boyfriend. Then I'll HAVE to get him out of the box so the two can get naked together.
Heydrich would indeed keep Wölffchen around. What a sad old man he became in real life. Always there to add his two pfennigs to every documentary but somehow looking so lost while doing so. He must have pined for his Heini for the rest of his life. So your AU Wölffchen would probably be virtually the same as the old one was.
Re my Heydrich icon--it's my favorite, too. As you know, it doesn't even come close to the marvelous one Machiavelli Imp produced using the same photo. Especially with the teeny-tiny "guest star" in one eyeball.
Re: "
Date: 2010-08-29 01:25 pm (UTC)I know. The US, like France, have a very simple jus soli - if you're born there, you're American/French. In Germany we've always had a jus sanguinis, meaning you're only German if your parents are. However, that was amended a bit in 2000, I believe: the children of (legal) immigrants in Germany are entitled both to the German and to their parents' nationality until the age of 20 or so, when they have to pick one. It's just that traditionally democratic countries like the US and France seem to have a different understanding of one's nationality than countries like Germany. Tbh, I think our way is a lot more realistic: I've seen in France the problem of loads of people who were legally French (because they were born there), but who hardly spoke French, who lived completely in their little sub-culture etc. Just being born somewhere doesn't mean anything. Being raised there, okay, but being born there? I couldn't care less about where I was born.
Well, that's always a problem when you have an actor portray a person who really existed. You'll never find an actor who looks exactly like Heydrich, just as tall, same eyes, same lips, same hands etc. Just like no actor ever looked exactly like Hitler, or like Goebbels, or like Churchill etc. But it doesn't really matter. If an actor (who looks at least remotely like Heydrich, y'know, same type) gets the character right, if he manages to pull off characteristic traits like Heydrich's piercing way of looking at people (and I can so see that with August), I'd take him over a Heydrich look-alike who can't act. I just see August as one of the few actors who don't look -completely- different, and who could manage the intensity required to play Heydrich. Mark Strong could probably pull off an amazing Heydrich, too, but he just looks all wrong.
Haha, true. I can really see Wölffchen as this sad old man who retired and pined for Wölffchen, and he would do so in Heydrich's continuing Third Reich just as he did IRL.
Heh, btw, I'm reading some Terry Pratchett again at the moment, and in my head Heydrich is always giving Lord Vetinari admiring looks. It's hilarious. ;)
I know which one you mean, yes. ^^ Still, I love the photo. Heydrich looks like such a boytoy on it.
Re: "
Date: 2010-08-31 03:29 am (UTC)LOL! My eyes instantly zoomed towards the pout and the cheekbones. Schellchen is just too cute for comfort. I wish there were more pics of him, but this one is pretty darn good. Thank you so much for sharing it ;-) Schellchen looks like he's absolutely dying for Heydrich to rip off his uniform and ravish him. I have clips of him testifying at Nuremberg, but unfortunately he's not in uniform (as if).
I agree with you about the little subcultures within the broader cultures of France and the USA, but unfortunately, the USA prides itself on this charade of being a melting pot. But it may be time to change things. Especially when the wealthier women of Mexico and South and Central America are crossing the border just to gain American citizenships for their children, then returning home again to bide their time until their respective countries have revolutions and they're driven out.
I agree, I believe Gusti is more than up to the task to play Heydrich, and I would hope he gets the opportunity to do so when he's in his late thirties. He has such an arresting presence onscreen. I remember seeing him for what I believe was the first time in The Counterfeiters (although he looked very familiar to me even then) and thinking, this man really has it, he's got tremendous presence, and he's so unusual-looking.
I have never read Terry Pratchett's novels, although I have heard of them...now where in that universe would Heydrich fit in? Or is it 5 am again there? ;-)
Omigod, yes, that photo of Heydrich--I don't think he ever looked more delicious. That's the photo/straw that broke the camel's back and had me finally realize that this odd-looking man was actually strangely attractive, and of course I began fantasizing about those huge lips! Damn, I wish we knew more about him sexually. I'm forever going to wonder if he gave great head with those lips. ;-)
Re: "
Date: 2010-08-31 10:10 am (UTC)Of course, I could have another look at the many, many Himmler pics I have. I know Heydrich is on many of them, but I could check if Schellchen is hiding somewhere as well. *puts that on the list of "things to do when procrastinating"*
The term "melting pot" always makes me laugh. ;) Ah, well, I guess I'm still a bit old-fashioned in that regard. Unfortunate side-effect of having such a boring family background, I guess.
It's a pity no one will ever make a movie about Heydrich that a) portrays him as a person and not a super-villain and b) focuses on something else than his death. FFS, I'm SICK of movies and books and documentaries and everything about his death. Okay, he died. Okay, his death was a catastrophe for the Nazis. Can we move on now please? As if the man did nothing else in his life than getting assassinated. The worst thing is that historians do this just as much as fictional authors and film makers. *end of rant*
Anyway, Gusti. If such a film is ever made, I want Gusti in it. It's mainly his eyes, I think (and hands ;)). I can just see him sitting behind a big desk, staring at one of his subordinates with those hard eyes, and interrupting them after three minutes because he already knows what they're going to say (he always did that, apparently).
He was great in The Counterfeiters, it was a great movie in general. I saw it before I even knew who this August Diehl was, but I already thought back then that he was a great actor. But apparently I was too busy with other stuff at the time to start looking up all his other movies.
You've never read Pratchett? Now that is absolutely unacceptable. I feel sorry for people who have never read him, and I don't trust people who don't like him. ;) Because I just don't understand how anyone can not like Pratchett.
The Heydrich thing actually made sense, it wasn't 5am. ;) Lord Vetinari is the ruler (read: benevolent tyrant) of the biggest city of Pratchett's fantasy world, and he's ... well, cunning, absurdly intelligent, always knows more than everyone else, always three steps ahead, and while he's rather ruthless and cold-hearted, he's not in it for his personal gain, but for the city. Everyone hates him, but his way of running the city works. And, yeah, the fact that he somehow knows everything that happens in the city would definitely impress Heydrich, I think. ;) Oh, that was another fangirl rant. I just adore Vetinari. So does everyone else who ever read Pratchett, I think. ;)
The only reply to your last paragraph is my icon. ;)
Re: "
Date: 2010-08-31 11:56 am (UTC)I, too, am absolutely delighted that you found a pic that shows Schellchen AND Heydrich TOGETHER, especially since Schellchen is so obviously mooning over Heydrich!!! Yes, yes, please do keep up the search. There have to be more pics out there somewhere. Oh, how I wish Nariel would post that splendid story of hers I beta'ed where BB Schellchen meets BB Navy-era Heydrich in a bar. It's so marvelous and so delicious.
OMIGOD. I SOOOOOO agree with you about the dearth of films and literature about Heydrich's life!! FFFS, instead of always focusing on his death, why doesn't someone take the time to focus on the power he gained that made people want to assassinate him in the first place? After all, as far as I know no one else outside of Hitler triggered assassination plots. I feel as though I can't get a handle on the man because all that's out there focuses pretty much on his death. I do have a couple of documentaries that aren't bad, however, and have loads of footage of him in his private life.
I know some time ago you recommended one or more biographies. Can you give me the authors's names again? It's time for me to read a decent biography of the man. Especially since I have a hankering to write about him.
As far as reading Pratchett, you'll just have to let me off the hook on that one, because I've far too many books to read and I'd like to read a good biography of Heydrich next. I'm afraid I've haven't been much of a fan of fantasy and/or science fiction literature since I was 16, but it was around that age that I first became a Holocaust scholar, and in general I tend to read far more nonfiction than fiction.
I do like your icon. It seems to me my entire life is an attempt to rise above reality. ;-)
Re: "
Date: 2010-08-31 03:02 pm (UTC)I've been telling her to do so, but for some reason she hesitates. Also, i think she really has other stuff on her mind right now, her RL is pretty busy at the moment.
It's always like that with people who had an 'interesting' death. Or, no, wait, actually it's not. It's as if all everybody remembered about Thomas Cranmer is that he was burnt as a martyr ... yeah, AFTER being Archbishop of Canterbury for 20 years. -.- I think the problem is that Heydrich never was a public figure before he went to Prague. Before, he wasn't very well known to most people outside the SS, and probably even in the SS quite a few underestimated how powerful he was. He was Himmler's brain, but Himmler was still who people saw most of the time. He only became a well-known face when he went to Prague, and it was mainly his amazing work there that got him killed (unless you go with the explanation that Himmler&co had him killed because he was too powerful, which I still think is crap - they might have been relieved about his death, but I doubt that they organised it; if not, he wasn't killed for his power as head of the SD and SP, but for being too clever as a Reichsprotektor).
I recommended Günther Deschner's Heydrich biography. The others I've had a look at seemed all either shitty, or they only focused on ... surprise, his death. But Deschner is really good. He's one of the main reasons that I know most of the things that there are to know about Heydrich. But I think you checked last time I mentioned the book, and found out that it exists only in German, no?
Well, you can easily fit a Pratchett novel in between two serious books. ;) He's great, but he's nevertheless one of those authors whose books you can read in a couple of hours. Like, so quickly you're almost disappointed it's already over again. ;) You can always fit in a Pratchett novel, no matter how busy you are. Personally I don't like sci-fi literature, and I gave up on fantasy literature because most of it is crap, but there are a few that are worth making an exception. No letting you off the hook on this, ever. ;)
my life is an attempt to ignore reality. It's just boring most of the time. ;)
Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-01 02:46 am (UTC)Which reminds me that I've made two interesting discoveries lately. One is that there are several Yulian Semyonov books translated into English available on amazon.com, which, by the way, also has two different Heydrich books by Deschner in English--or perhaps they're different translations. One is simply "Heydrich: A Biography" and the other is "Heydrich: The Pursuit of Total Power", for which there is a German version with the same title. Is there a difference between these two publications, or are they one and the same? Let me know.
The second interesting discovery is that there is a new Russian-language PC game oddly titled "Operation Valkyrie" and featuring a man with an eyepatch on the cover. The game has absolutely nothing to do with the plot against Hitler but is a loose, videogame adaptation of "17 Moments." with the the main character based on (and strongly resembling) Stierlitz!! He's even the same rank!!! I discovered this in one of Walter The Wizard's Russian-language LJ postings. He told me the posting was a review of the game which is apparently terribly slow with lots of lags, despite being historically fairly accurate. All I know is the graphics are gorgeous and definitely look period-accurate. Himmler and Goebbels appear at various times according to the screencaps. Here's a link to the screencaps that shows one with Goebbels and looks as though it's set in the bunker or something:
http://www.ag.ru/screenshots/stroke_of_fate/237523#show
Who knows. Anyway, it looks absolutely fascinating; please share the link with Nariel, I know she'd enjoy it. Personally, I'm dying to play it. I'll probably do a screencap posting on Nazi Fetish on LJ.
WTW also mentioned that it's generally believed that Stierlitz was based on Willi Lehmann and not on Heinrich Müller. I had read that he was based on Müller (who disappeared behind the Iron Curtain) but an independent character was created as a cover-up.
Oh, all right *grumble*, I'll read a Pratchett novel. Let me know which one I can read most quickly and I'll fit it in somewhere. With the understanding that I will read it only because you are the one recommending it and for some reason I trust your youthful but brilliant judgment. Just please tell me there are no furry-footed hobbit characters in it. ;-D
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-02 11:24 am (UTC)Ah, yes, there are some Semyonov books in English, but somehow I never even wanted to read them. *shrug* I'm glad the Deschner biography exists in English, though. AFAIK, he only wrote one biography, but there's an older edition, and a newer, revised one. So, in doubt, just buy the newer one.
Erm, okay ... this looks really strange. WTF Stierlitz PC game. ;) I can send the link to Nariel, but since she has no internet right now, it won't help much. ;)
Yay, gotcha. This is going to be horrible if you don't like it. ;) I assure you, there are no hobbits in it. And even if there were, Pratchett would just make fun of them. ;) Mhm, how am I supposed to recommend one of so many wonderful books? One of my many favourites is Going Postal (and not just for the beautiful title). Some people have complained that the allusions to the real world are too obvious in this one, he's usually more subtle about that in his other books. But you might actually like it because it's less fantasy than in some of his other novels. Anyway, it's hilarious, and it has unusually many scenes with Lord Vetinari (and in half of them Pratchett gushes about Vetinari's beautiful, long hands). If you liked it, I can rec you some more. ;)
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-03 07:44 am (UTC)You never wanted to read the Semyonov books? Or just in English? My Russian just isn't good enough to plow through them in Russian, but Semyonov's inherent slashiness is calling out to me. Which book has the infamous night time drive with Heydrich & Schellenberg hitting the fawn?
Yeah, I'm not sure what the heck is going on in that Stierlitz game. But the graphics and backgrounds sure are beautiful. TBH, what I'd really like is my own Third Reich Sims game that I could populate with Heydrich, Schellenberg, Wünsche, Rommel, Stierlitz, Aue, Landa, Hellstrom etc, etc. Only I'd probably never be able to pry myself away from my computer.
As for Pratchett, Going Postal it is. But I'm not promising when I'll get to it, unless the library has it. As usual, I'm strapped for cash. :-(
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-03 10:59 am (UTC)Good thing I don't play computer games ... well, okay, except for Civ IV, but that's more because conquering the world with my brother is too much fun not to. ;)
I'm sure you can also find it cheaper on ebay or something. But, sure, take your time. Just as long as you read it some day. ;D
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-05 03:34 am (UTC)Now comes the question: where would I find more slash? In Wölffchen's memoirs? Schellenberg's memoirs? Or Semyonov's novels? That may determine which I read first of the those three.
Somehow I can easily picture you and your brother hard at work conquering the world. You'd have your long, Wagnerian braid trailing down your back.
"Just as long as you read it some day." - Jawohl, mein Führer.
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-06 11:42 pm (UTC)Long Wagnerian braid and Hitler beard? I'd look funny. ;)
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-07 08:24 am (UTC)But didn't Wölffchen write swoony fangirl letters to his wife about his "endlessly satisfying" work with Himmler? And didn't he also use a particular German word that conveyed a rather deep, more than simple platonic love for him?
It tickles me to death that there was this group of Nazi Nerds with Himmler, Wölffchen and even Schellchen. Although Schellchen was a really cute techno nerd who just loved all his secret agent gadgets. He reminds me so much of the boys that made up the audio-visual crew when I was in school. All absorbed in his technology.
Yes, you'd look very funny with a Hitler beard. Especially since he never had one. ;-) However, somehow I can picture you with your glasses and that little mustache. And the braid. Forgive me, please, but I'm tittering over my keyboard now. ;-D
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-07 12:46 pm (UTC)... I'll just try to stop imagining this. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. ;)
Re: Heydrich, Semyonov, Deschner and Pratchett
Date: 2010-09-10 02:31 am (UTC)Oh, then I just need the source for Wölffchen's fangirl letters, then. Talk about great slash!
...I think you should laugh until you cry. ;-D
no subject
Date: 2010-09-15 02:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-09-16 08:23 am (UTC)Damn. Oh, well, I can always refer to your posting for the matter. But it's just not possible to write anything but cute slash about these two. Kind of like Andy/Jason in True Blood--cute and cuddly and definitely a couple, but just not erotic. Although Wölffchen might have been sexy if he wasn't such a lovesick puppy trailing after his object of desire...