(no subject)

[linndechir]

Stealing another meme from sternflammenden, yay! I'm wasting way too much time on memes lately.

Give me a pairing and I'll tell you:
1. When or if I started shipping them:
2. What I think their challenge is:
3. What makes me happy about them:
4. What makes me sad about them:
5. What moment I wish had never happened:
6. Who I'd be comfortable them ending up with, if not each other:
7. My happily ever after for them:

Comments

[sternflammenden.livejournal.com]

There is no shame in wasting time on meme-ing.

I'll be predictable for you: Stannis/Davos.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

1. Fairly early on in ACOK. It's a pretty obvious ship, they almost ship themselves. I suppose the complete loyalty and trust between them just got me, especially compared to most other relationships in these books, with everyone betraying and/or using everyone else.
2. They're fucking repressed. I don't know, I'm not too worried about them ever NOT being together. Staying alive, maybe? Not letting Melisandre fuck up Stannis even more?
3. Those little moments in which they say absolutely beautiful things that express how much they matter to each other. Davos' comments like "I'm yours", Stannis saying that he doesn't have time to grieve when he believes Davos might be dead ...
4. That they won't ever be anything but platonic.
5. Stannis letting Davos rot in a dungeon for weeks before getting him out of there. Every time Stannis listens to Melisandre instead of Davos. Every time Stannis sends Davos away.
6. Davos and Marya must stay together, obviously. Stannis can have either Jon or Sansa. Or both, I'm cool with that, too. HIS is the song of ice and fire. ;)
7. Stannis is finally King and Davos is, well, maybe not his Hand anymore, but still his most trusted friend and advisor.

Predictable answers, I know. ;)

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

i love memes.

jamie/brienne

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

1. I don't ship them. ;) At all. I can see how their relationship may be interesting (though I personally find Brienne too boring to care, and I don't find Jaime very captivating either), but for my life I can't see them as a romantic ship. It makes no sense to me.
2. If we're talking romance, I don't see Jaime realistically desiring her. Platonic love, okay, but nothing sexual.
3. Erm ... it might prepare Jaime to kill Cersei? Finally?
4. That they take up so many pages?
5. Dunno ... Jaime rescuing her from the bear pit felt somewhat silly to me, like a cheap deus ex machina.
6. I can't ship either of them with anyone. Jaime should go out with Cersei, in a big bloody bang. I don't see Brienne getting a happily ever after, so for her I mostly hope that she'll get some heroic, meaningful death that'll make her feel like she died for something worth dying for.
7. As I said, I don't see them getting a happily ever after. Especially not a typical "marriage&kisd" ending.

This is so much fun to do for pairings you don't ship. :D

[outboxed.livejournal.com]

I'm about to go to sleep but this way I'll get to wake up to your answers. (;

Jon/Stannis!

spoilers for ADWD (if anyone else reads these comments)

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

In that case, good morning. :) SRKNLKJBLDDFKGBÖKDFG THAT PAIRING I LOVE IT SO MUCH I MUST SOMEHOW FORCE YOU TO WRITE FIC. Sorry, just needed to get that out.

1. I raised an eyebrow or two when they first met, during their conversations about making Jon Lord of Winterfell. I started shipping them when Jon refused and Stannis couldn't help but respect that; their arguments that just made me realise how incredibly similar they are. I think realising that is what made me like Jon for the first time. And Stannis' approving look after Jon executed Slynt sealed it for me. But pretty much every single scene with them just made me ship them more.
2. They're the perfect allies, but Jon can't really take Stannis' side due to his vows. If he weren't in the Night's Watch, he and Stannis would be BFF, but as it is Jon's vow not to take any side will stand between them.
3. How they can't help but respect each other, and they're both grumpy about it. But mostly it's how much they have in common, how Jon is a younger Stannis, and I think Stannis realises that. Stannis is not strong on empathy, but I think he can feel for someone if that someone has apparently the same issues and problems he has (or had). They understand each other. I also think they could make each other feel better.
4. I doubt that they will ever get the opportunity to fight on the same side for a long time and become closer. Also, Stannis is probably going to die at some point. -.-
5. IF Stannis or Jon dies ... then that moment. ;) Or any other moment in which they will be turned against each other without hope of reconciliation.
6. Jon/Wall. Stannis with Sansa or Davos. (Or the Bastard of Nightsong. Wait what?)
7. King Stannis with a) Jon as Lord Commander, and Stannis visits the Wall every couple of years; it's the most realistic scenario in a way, but also somewhat sad because they won't see each other much, b) if there is no Wall anymore, Jon as Stannis' Hand, because that'd be epic, or c) Jon in his Kingsguard, if that's the only way to get him out of the Night's Watch. Of course b) and c) can be combined. I'd just love to see them ruling Westeros together.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

i don't see a traditional marriage and kids - hell it may never be possible to get married since jamie is a kingsguard but maybe he'll figure out a way to make brienne a guard as well and they'll have hot, kinky kingsguard sex all day.

i don't think jamie will go out with cersei. i think grrm is really going to sever that sad tryst. but i also think he means for brienne to do more than challenge his morals. she challenges practically everything about him from his definition of beauty to his definition of himself. and i don't think that is because of his platonic thoughts. after all, by his own omission, he acts because of love. could be platonic but his asking brienne about whether or not she was still a maid makes me think otherwise.

but it all remains to be seen. i have this niggling feeling that brienne is not going to make it.

in the same way, i think penny is meant to challenge tyrion on practically everything but tyrion was in a better place to start with than jamie and therefore will not see penny in quite the same manner that jamie views brienne. at this moment, brienne must seem like something other worldly to jamie while penny seem to be trying to help tyrion take stock of things. its more like a slap in the face than an angel arriving. i don't think grrm means for penny and tyrion to get together in any way.

other than davos/stannis or stannis/sansa, do you ship anyone else?

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Brienne and hot sex in one sentence kind of breaks my brain, sorry. ;)

I think we'll be stuck with Cersei until the last book (I hope, she's hilarious), but I do hope that she and Jaime will die together. In an utterly unromantic way. before that he can get challenged by Brienne any way he likes, but I do hope his and Cersei's death will be linked.

Tyrion's entire storyline in ADWD just made me want to punch things, so I don't have too many thoughts on that, but now that you say it there probably is some similarity. I doubt GRRM will have Jaime and Brienne get together either, at least not long-term.

Oh, I ship lots of things. I adore Stannis/Jon, definitely one of my favourite pairings (I love Stannis/Davos and Stannis/Sansa, but Stannis/Jon is so incredibly complex it just intrigues me). Renly/Loras is utterly sweet, and I do hope the future will bring some Arya/Gendry. I ship Qarl/Asha like mad, and a crazy part of me is very curious about Victarion/Asha (don't judge ;)). I love Robert/Ned, although more platonic than sexual. Oh, and I almost forgot about Sandor/Sansa, although I ship that more as UST than with them ever getting together.
Edit: I can't believe I forgot Roose/Walda. ;)

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

jaime's story in affc and tyrion's in adwd are exact parellels. from being captured to escape with a woman. which is why i get pissed off everytime people complain how often tyrion repeats his father's words "where do whores go". its the exact same thing as jamie repeating tyrion's words "she slept with the kettlebacks and the maybe even the moonboy" (i can't remember the exact quote) their stories are meant to be mirrors.

and it saddens me when you say hot sex and brienne don't go together. why not? :( because she's manly and unattractive? remember, jamie begins to call her brienne the beauty. give her a break. it would seem jamie has.

now that you mention cersei and jamie's link, i could see them dying together. it would seem logical. except if that happens, it would mean grrm is saying they truly should be together and i think he means for jamie to overcome cersei, after being in her power for his entire existence.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

True. My main issue with Tyrion's storyline in ADWD is that I felt that he shouldn't have survived at the end of ASOS. But I can see how that's a very unpopular opinion.

Oh, she can have hot sex all she likes and I hope she enjoys herself, I just don't want to think about it. As I said, I don't find Brienne a very interesting character, and I'm not much into het in the first place. I need to care a lot about a het pairing to want to imagine anything too explicit between them. ;)

I hope that Jaime will overcome Cersei in the end, by killing her or at least not saving her, but he should still die himself. I don't think that Jaime can get past Cersei. He can realise that she's not good for him and that they won't ever be happy together, but I can't imagine Jaime being happy without her either. That's why I said that I want them to die together, but in an unromantic way, not in a "they belong together and cannot be parted because they love each other so much" way.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

tyrion couldn't die in adwd because his character arc is not complete. and i think he's meant to play a major role in dany's entourage when she arrives in westeros.

i know you don't want her to arrive, but you must admit that is where the story is heading. what's not clear is if she will sit the iron throne.

what do you think stannis would do if she arrived and asked him to bend the knee? is she the rightful ruler? i don't mean do you think she'd be good or is worthy but as the last (not sure about aegon) targaryen, does the throne pass to her?

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I know, I just wish that hadn't happened. Tyrion's storyline at the end of ASOS felt incredibly complete to me. But I'm not the author, so who cares what I think.

Yep, I know she'll be around, and Tyrion probably to. I should just stop complaining, not like I can change anything about it if GRRM goes for the cliché ending.

I doubt Stannis would do that. He made his choice years ago, and I don't see him going back on that choice and saying, "oh, btw I was wrong back then, let's go back to the Targaryens." Also, I think Stannis has invested too much in his own campaign for kingship to stop now. He has done so much, he won't give up now. It'd feel like giving up to him, and i think he's too stubborn for that. Also, Stannis has lots of issues with women in any position of power. He'd be even less inclined to bend the knee to Daenerys than he would be to Aegon. Add to that that she's very young and inexperienced, so Stannis wouldn't even have the added incentive to think that she'd make a far better ruler than him and that he'd do the realm a favour by stepping back from his claim. But that's only details, mostly I think that once Stannis has made up his mind, he won't change his opinion again. He supported Robert and not Aerys back then, and he is Robert's heir. Why should he suddenly support Aerys' heir instead of pursuing his own claim? Stannis is also stubborn enough to die fighting rather than bend the knee just because his cause is lost.
I've seen that theory a lot, that Stannis might decide to bend the knee, but I think it would go against everything we've seen from him so far. Stannis is aware of Daenerys' existence, he has been for years. He's the one who took Dragonstone just after she and Viserys were taken away. He has always known that there ARE rightful Targaryen heirs out there, and he didn't do anything about it. When Robert died, he didn't say, "oh, maybe we should get those Targaryens back", but he said "I'm Robert's heir, I'm the heir to the throne." Stannis changing his mind just because Daenerys is suddenly there and not in Essos... it sounds very out of character to me.

[sternflammenden.livejournal.com]

It would be so unlikely, but I like to think that if Stannis becomes king, Davos and his wife and children all move to court and they're totally nice to him and treat him almost like a family member but he can't handle it and is even more stern than usual, but is secretly pleased.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

This makes so much sense for Stannis. He can't deal with people being nice to him. It's why Stannis/Sansa cracks me up so much. In the beginning, when he's starting to like her and she's starting to like him, he'd be even grumpier because he would be utterly confused by having a marriage that is not a total nightmare. I want a happy ending for Stannis if only because seeing Stannis happy would be fascinating. ;)

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

are there theories that he will bend to daenerys? i haven't heard them. i only asked because stannis seems to be motivated many times by the right thing to do. nobody goes looking for a king/queen. well, most people don't so i never expected him to. as robert's brother, i understand why he feels he's next. i was curious to hear what you thought about it.

my take is if dany arrives with an army, i'm not sure if a man motivated by the right thing to do would attack. but i'm not convinced that stannis is solely motivated by duty and conscious and his attacking dany would feel like a logical step in grrm's story. however it would also prove that he is indeed after the throne because he wants it if he fights the rightful heir for it.

so i don't have a particular theory but i will admit i see stannis bending the knee as highly unlikely. he is human, at the end of the day. and humans want power.

as for cliche endings, i an not convinced dany will actually sit on the iron throne, even if she fights for it.

did tyrion's story really feel complete at the end of asos? he'd just won a major battle and saved king's landing. what reward would he get for that? he'd married sansa but hadn't slept with her. that needed to be resolved. he still has enormous guilt about his first wife. that needed to be resolved. would he be cleared of joff's death? what price would he have to pay for tyrion's death? and that's just off the top of my head. if i looked, i'm sure there's more.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Theories may be the wrong word, but I've seen it discussed elsewhere.

I think what ASOIAF shows us that this whole "rightful heir" business is highly problematic. Stannis is Robert's rightful heir, but Robert only had any right by conquest. Daenerys is Aerys' heir, and in a long line of succession Aegon the Conqueror's - whose only right was also by conquest. Technically, neither of them is more rightful than the other. They're both the heirs of people whose only "right" was having the more powerful army and killing all their rivals.
Also, IF Aegon is real, Daenerys is not the Targaryen heir to the throne, Aegon is. I really hope that Aegon is real, because I'd love for Daenerys to have to deal with NOT being the rightful heir. I'm really curious what she'd do (probably just marry him, but that'd be boring).

I don't think Stannis wants power, I don't think he wouldn't bend the knee because he's greedy for the throne. I think he wouldn't bend the knee because right now he's operating in a logic in which the Baratheons are the rightful rulers of the Seven Kingdoms, not in a logic in which the Targaryens are. Similarily, Robb Stark and the other Northerners used the logic that nobody has the "right" to rule the Seven Kingdoms, but the North belongs to the Starks.

I hope you're right. I meant by cliché ending Daenerys coming back, winning the throne and ruling. That'd be cliché.

To me the storyline felt complete: his rise to power as Hand in ACOK, his success (defending King's Landing and basically destroying Stannis' army), and then his fall from power. The short moment of hope - Oberyn offering to fight for him - but it doesn't work out and Oberyn dies. It's a classical tragic story arc, and it felt complete. Were all issues resolved? Of course not, but how many people die with all issues resolved in their lives? Robb, Renly, Ned, Viserys, Catelyn, all of these people had unresolved issues in their lives and they still died; that's not a reason. Tyrion getting away after murdering his own father and completing a really beautiful tragic story arc for which his completely unjustified death would have been an amazing ending ... it feels cheap. I think Tyrion's death would have made for a better story, and I'm saying this as someone who really liked Tyrion before ADWD and loved reading about him.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

Robb, Renly, Ned, Viserys, Catelyn

of these, isn't it only catelyn that had unresolved issues with her guilt and search for her children? and look at where she is, still running around westeros. although, now that i think about it ned dying before he could talk to jon is definitely unresolved!

as for the others, robb may have a child on the way. hardly unresolved. renly died in battle. his wife and brienne moved on. all that is unresolved is how it actually happened. viserys, well, it was rather obvious that wasn't going anywhere.

as for outrageous theories, i have heard the theory that the reason ned tells jon he will tell him about his mother when next they meet is so jon will have already taken his oath and would not be able to act on the knowledge that he is a targaryen.

*ducks from linn throwing objects*

its not my theory. honest! but clearly its from a supporter of other theories that i read on another site. i will admit, it seemed interesting. i mean, what reason is there for ned not telling jon about it on his way to the wall?

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

what reason is there for ned not telling jon about it on his way to the wall?

i mean regardless of who his mother was, that was the opportune time, don't you think?

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Ned didn't talk to Jon, he didn't clear up anything with Robert before he died, he didn't get around to telling Stannis what he meant to tell him .. that makes for lots of unresolved issues. Renly's story was just getting started when he died. I think Tyrion dying would have made sense - he got revenge on his father, which is so much more than anyone else in the series ever got. But mostly for me it's this typical classical tragedy structure in Tyrion's story that made me think, "Wait, this is where the story ENDS, it doesn't go on with a cheap deus ex machina!"

oO That's just a dumb theory. Ned isn't that kind of a schemer. I mean, ANY explanation makes more sense than honest, down-to-earth, direct Ned doing something just to manipulate his son, or nephew in this scenario. We're talking about Ned, not about Littlefinger.
Also, what the hell would Jon have done about being a Targaryen bastard, in a world in which Robert rules safely and has two legitimate sons (which is what Ned thinks by the time he decides NOT to tell Jon about it)? Except emo more about it?

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

honest, down-to-earth, direct Ned doing something just to manipulate his son,

i totally agree. still, i wish it was explained why he didn't talk then. of course, no one could have known that was the last time they'd see each other.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Ned was 35ish, Jon was 15, there was no reason to think that Ned would never come back and not get another chance to tell him. Maybe it was as simple as Ned wanting Jon to grow up a little bit more before knowing the truth, whatever that truth was. And, depending on what theory you go with, Ned might not have told him for the same reasons he didn't tell him before: either he loved Jon's mother and talking about her is painful, or Jon is Lyanna's son and Ned promised to keep whatever the secret was ... both reasons would still apply even when Jon goes to the Wall.
I don't know, tbh I've never cared much about who Jon's parents are. What matters is how Jon grew up, and he grew up as a Stark. He's a Stark through and through, no matter how his mother or his father is. I know it's unlikely, but I really hope that the big mystery of Jon's parents actually won#t have a big impact on his storyline. I'd prefer the message of Jon being Ned's son because Ned raised him as his son (whether Ned is his biological father or not) to a message of "he was fathered by some guy he never even met and that's totally important now."

[bela0103.livejournal.com]

I'm almost sure you don't like this ship, but I have to ask.

Stannis/Melisandre con and non!con

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I absolutely despise this ship. ;) But it's interesting enough.

1. Well, we have to assume that it's canon that they slept at least two times with each other. Considering how I don't see Stannis doing that on his own free will, and how Stannis did not seem to know that he was in any way involved in Renly's death, I have to assume that it was non-con and that she either drugged him or used some spell on him. I can't ship it as consensual, because that's just ridiculously OOC for Stannis. He trusts her, yes, but he wouldn't sleep with anyone just because he wants to.
2. I think it's very obvious that they don't care about each other as people. Melisandre thinks Stannis is AA and must save the world, which is why she supports him. Stannis needs power and she can give him power, which is why he keeps her around. The moment she stops thinking he's AA, or the moment Stannis doesn't need her anymore, they'll be done. That moment can't come soon enough, imo.
3. Erm ... I think the only thing that makes me happy about them is that without her Stannis probably would have got killed by Renly.
4. The lingering feeling that she will be the one who will get him killed.
5. I wish he had been a bit smarter about it and not let the whole religious thing get too powerful. He doesn't give a damn about religion, which is probably why he went like, "sure, do whatever you like." But she's so set on him being AA, she would have kept supporting him even if he hadn't alienated everyone else with the sigil, the burnings of septs and godswoods etc. Generally, I just hope she'll GDIAF soon.
6. I'd be more comfortable with them ending up with anyone else than each other. ;) Melisandre I can't see in a relationship. Stannis with the usual suspects, Jon, Davos, Sansa.
7. Stannis becomes king and gets rid of her? My happy ending for them is Stannis and/or Davos killing her, preferably after she has stopped being useful. I don't hate her, but as long as she's alive I have the impression that she'll just get him killed. My personal pet theory which will never come true: she stops thinking he's AA and burns him for his kingsblood ... except that it turns out she was right, he actually IS AA, steps out of the flames unscathed and kills her because, well, she tried to burn him alive. ;) She'd probably die happily knowing that she was right.

No happy answers here, sorry. It's a fucked up non!con pairing with too much rape for my taste, and as consensual relationship it's out of character the moment there's any sex involved.

[bela0103.livejournal.com]

Do I get to ask another? Or no?

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

As many as you like, I love rambling about ASOIAF. ;) Though it helps if it includes characters I care about, I doubt I'd have much to say about ... what do I know, Arys/Arianne or something like that.