OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE FANDOM!!!

[linndechir]

You know what pisses me off? Blatant hypocrisy in fandom. I mean, I get it, we all have favourite characters and we are a lot more forgiving about their faults, and we have characters we already despise, so of course we're going to be even harder on them when they fuck up. And that's okay, we're all human and biased. But when two characters DO THE EXACT SAME FUCKING THING, and you applaud one of them for being badass and cool and doing the right thing, and hate on the other for doing something so utterly horrible and evil ... it's just dumb. It's okay to hate characters, and it's okay to be protective of characters you love. But that doesn't mean that those you hate can't occasionally do something cool. Nor does loving a character mean that they don't occasionally fuck up and do something wrong. But if character A doing something is totally badass (or at least acceptable), I don't see why character B doing the same thing is horrifying and wroooong.

The most obvious example of this is the kind of people who yell OMFG DOMESTIC ABUSE at Robert slapping Cersei, but cheer loudly and happily when Tyrion slaps Joffrey. Make up your mind: either hitting people is wrong, then you shouldn't be so happy about Tyrion slapping his thirteen-year-old nephew. Or you think that occasionally people are such dumb shits that they deserve a slap, and in that case I don't see why you get all outraged about Robert slapping Cersei. Because the situation was very similar. You don't get to feel all righteous and outraged about the one and applaud the other. I could go on and on with examples (kings executing people for high treason, which is apparently cool when "flawless" Robb does it, but despicable when "evil" Stannis does it; or kinslaying/shrugging it off when someone else kills your relatives), but then I'd just get angry. Angrier. *grumble*

Just, argh. Don't mind me, I'm in a ranting mood.

Comments

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

Lol I understand where you are coming from, but I am guilty of that hypocracy. I think it comes from the circumstances outside of those individual actions. You know Joffrey is a little shit who deserves a slap (at least) for everything he does/has done. Whereas you know Robert has a history of domestic abuse so while Cersei is infuriating in her own right, that slap seems a part of the larger abuse, and so is not cool to me. I do think Tyrion slapping Joff is slightly 'wrong' since he is by our standards a child, but it is hard to see him as one while you are reading.

Just my 2 cents :)

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

But Tyrion doesn't know Joffrey is a total monster, he just knows Joffrey is an annoying, self-important brat. I don't know. Rationally, I know that slapping people is not cool and that Tyrion slapping Joffrey is just as unacceptable as Robert slapping Cersei. Emotionally, I cheered in both cases because if anyone ever deserved to get that slap, it's Cersei. I'm cool with emotional responses not being rational, I just wish people would acknowledge that; it just bothers me when people pretend that rationally Tyrion's action was completely acceptable and Robert's wasn't.

Anyway, it's just one example and we can always argue about examples. It just cracks me up when people go all self-righteous about "domestic abuse" while cheering about Tyrion slapping his nephew.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I think Tyrion knows Joffrey is pretty awful, maybe not killing cats and hurting his brother awful, but he is always cruel.

I think I cheered for both the first time I read the series, but now I can not cheer for Robert. He became a much more repulsive character for me as time went on, now I can not see his actions without the thought of other abuses.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I feel like I should hate Robert, not for how he treated Cersei (because I don't care much), but for how he treated Stannis (seeeeeething rage here). But I suppose I just feel too sorry for the man to hate him. I know that what he went through is absolutely no excuse for his behaviour, but I can't wish ill on Robert. I just want him to run off with Ned and spend the rest of his life hunting and whoring. ;)

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

The main reason I don't like Robert is because of how selfish he is imo, the stuff with Cersei is just an add on.

Lol I love asoiaf because different people can love or hate the same character for good reasons, its just down to personal opinion. I don't like the guy who abuses his wife but I love the guy who tried to murder a child lol and its totally okay

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I mostly just dislike him for how he humiliated Stannis, but mostly I just feel sorry for him.

heh, true, and I have absolutely no problem with that. I mean, I love Roose and Tywin and they're far from good guys. The only thing that bothers me is when people pretend that their favourite characters doing shitty things is somehow morally superior. Like, I understand loving Jaime, but I'd be a bit irritated by someone saying that Jaime throwing Bran out of the window is totally badass and cool. ;)

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

Lol yeah and I think with almost every action you are able to look at it from their perspective and understand why they would do it too. It does not make it right but it definitely makes it more interesting.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am SO WITH YOU.


It is a bit different in Robert/Cersei and Tyrion/Jpffrey , though , at least in the TV show ans this is were the majority of people are coming from, because the actor that plays Joffrey is not 13, but 18-ish. I mean - a bit different (because slapping a woman is not the same as slapping a 18-year old horror of a guy), but not that different for me to start using "Tyrion slap" all over the place. But in the books - yes, the same thing (did Tyrion slap Joffrey in the books?).

BUu the thing with Stannis and "noble Robb" or "noble Ned" does make me angry - everyone is SO OUTRAGED by everything that Stannis does, but Ned executing Will with his own hands without properly asking him "WHAT HAPPENED" (or killing what is almost a puppy - Lady) - this is "Our noble Northern way"

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I think that argument existed even before the show. I suppose it's just because everyone despises Joffrey anyway so we like to see him slapped around (tbh, that's why I absolutely didn't mind seeing Cersei slapped around). And at least the LJ part of fandom is pretty focused on women and how women are abused in the books, so they just focus more on violence against women than on violence against men.

Gnuh, yes. "omfg Stannis burns innocent people". Wait, what, where was, what's his name, his Florent castellan innocent? The guy went behind Stannis' back to negotiate a separate peace that Stannis would never agree to. That's the very definition of high treason. Sure, burning people is a pretty horrible way to kill someone, but Stannis had every right to have the guy executed.

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's really the same for one main reason: Robert is described as a huge big guy and clearly very strong, Cercei is a lot weaker than him, she has no way to defend herself. Joffrey is already as tall if not taller than Tyrion and a lot more physicaly capable (Tyrion is not only short, he's disabled, and can't fight as well as Joffrey). Tyrion slapping Joffrey is okay because it's clear that Joffrey isn't fighting back because he's a coward, not because he can't. Cercei, on the other hand, physically can't. She's helpless. If Robert was slapping Joffrey, the comparision would work.

That's my 2 pennies.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

True, but Tyrion is still Joffrey's uncle, and at least book!Joffrey is only 13 or so. And even though Tyrion is physically weaker than Joffrey, Joffrey can't really fight back because of the social situation (I mean, come on, what nephew gets away with beating up his dwarf uncle?). I mean, I can see that there's a slight difference, but that difference isn't big enough to call one situation horrible, unacceptable domestic abuse and the other one cool and badass and perfectly fine.

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

Uh, no Joffrey would totally get away with beating up Tyrion. He's the prince, Cercei would come down on his side. This is Joffrey, he gets away with having the Kingsguard beat up thirteen year old girls who've done nothing to him. Punching Tyrion back would be seen as totally justified self-defence.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

That's after he became king, though, not while Robert was still around. Joffrey didn't seem to do much of anything other than torture cats while Robert was around. If Joffrey had thought he'd get away with punching Tyrion, I guess he would have done it. Anyway, I'm not arguing that Tyrion shouldn't have punched Joffrey (cos, hell, did that boy deserve it).

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

i totally agree with you.

i've always wondered if robert ever hit cersei before that. if he did, why did he tell ned it wasn't very kingly? he seemed remorseful but maybe that was because it was witnessed by ned. i dunno. still, i didn't think it screamed spouse abuse. especially since cersei seemed so unaffected by it. which could mean robert did hit her frequently or that she really didn't feel hurt by it. that relationship was so effed up :)

as for slapping joff, his reaction showed he was definitely not used to being disciplined. and yes, he was a cruel boy. i suppose it feels more acceptable because hitting a child to discipline them is more accepted than hitting your wife to discipline her.

but this fandom is really focused on the treatment of women in this series. i think the reaction to cersei is more about that. plus, we are always more forgiving of characters we like. that is very, very obvious in this fandom. fans always forgive catelyn's treatment of jon as expected and acceptable during the time period of the book. but the same fans cannot accept or understand the expected consummation of dany's & sansa's wedding night which was definitely normal for that time. go figure.

i HATE all the stark supporters who say ned and robb never did anything wrong and are perfect. good grief. but i suppose that is how they've been written. it is very clear that the author sees them that way and tries to paint them with those colors. same for stannis. he is introduced as a difficult character who feels slighted by his older brother and so most readers see him that way. its all grrm's fault!

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Cersei said to Ned that Robert hit her "once or twice before", so it's not a regular thing. I suppose the years of spousal abuse come for from the fact that he raped her when he was drunk. And I'm far from excusing Robert's behaviour towards Cersei in general, even though for my life I can't feel sorry for the woman.

But, yeah, I agree with you, fandom focuses just way more on the cruelty towards women while more easily dismissing the violence against men (or boys, in this case).

What I love about ASOIAF, though, is how unreliable all narrators are, and the most interesting thing about the books is to see through the appearances and see what's behind. So it just irritates me when people take the obvious at face value, even when it's wrong.

[direwolfdragon.livejournal.com]

I think the difference in those situations might come into play because one is a situation between two adults- Cersei and Robert and the other is between an adult and a child- Tyrion and Joffrey.

I am NOT condoning the type of corporal punishment that Tyrion gave Joffrey, not in the least. I don't think slapping a child across the face is the same thing as a judicious slap on the ass- one not given in anger or meant to cause damage, but I think that might be where some people are coming from when they don't show as much anger towards Tyrion. Especially those who know the depth of Joffery's evilness.

I think it all boils down to what we know of Joffrey and the habit of applying today's standards to a setting where today's standards do not belong in the least. In the setting of ASOIAF, there is nothing wrong with corporal punishment for children and from what we have seen between Robert and Cersei and Daenerys and Drogo, using physical violence- beating, slapping or rape within a marriage.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

But that's just the thing. If anything, I find it much worse to slap a child than to slap another adult, even if that adult is physically weaker.

But you have a point. I suppose today more people still think that it's acceptable to slap a child (especially a child like Joffrey) than for a husband to slap his wife.

Anyway, it's just one example among many. This fandom is fairly big on judging characters for things that are perfectly okay when someone else does it. :/ And of course we're all guilty of that to a certain extent, but sometimes it's just ridiculous.

[direwolfdragon.livejournal.com]

Yes, this fandom is fairly big on judging and accepting certain actions from some characters while condemning others for the exact same actions.

For example, take Arya's goal of revenge against those who have hurt her and those people she cares about. Cersei does the same. Arya is understood and praised or excused because of what she has been through while Cersei is condemned and made out to be an evil witch (although I am no fan of Cersei and think is she is an evil witch- my own venture into that hypocrisy).

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I suppose the difference there is that Arya is an innocent little girl who did nothing to deserve all the shit that happened to her, while Cersei is a grown woman who made her own enemies by being a crazy, power-hungry witch. ;) But I suppose it's a matter of interpretation in most cases.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

take Arya's goal of revenge against those who have hurt her and those people she cares about. Cersei does the same. Arya is understood and praised or excused because of what she has been through while Cersei is condemned and made out to be an evil witch

but isn't the whole strategy of grrm? having us question what is right and wrong? what is honorable and dishonorable? these ladies taking revenge is a good example of the same action being taken by two different characters and because of our association with the character, we either condone it or attack it.

[direwolfdragon.livejournal.com]

True, but I also think GRRM's characters are far more complex than good vs. evil. With maybe the exception of Ned Stark who is so wrapped up in honor and doing what is 'right', that it gets him killed because he can't make compromises that wouldn't necessarily paint him evil in the long run.

And perhaps with Joffery, Gregor Clegane and a few minor characters, none are completely evil.

His characters are human and I think that is why we are so drawn to them and why we are so willing to let ourselves become attached and vocal about them. Why will vociferously defend one while condemning another, even when you take a step back and look at the one you are condemning, in all honesty, they aren't all that different than the one you defend.

Back to Cersei and Arya- I feel that Arya and the girl that Cersei used to be aren't all that different and if Arya doesn't find a way to make peace with what has happened to her, she isn't going to turn out much different that what Cersei has become.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Arya is really one of the characters whose development I'm most curious about. I mean, I love people like Stannis or Davos, but I don't really see them changing radically (unless GRRM goes for Nightking!Stannis, which I really don't hope for). And I see people like Tyrion and Daenerys changing a lot, but I don't really -care- much about them, emotionally. But with Arya, I'm really, really curious about what GRRM has in store for her. I think it all depends on how and when and under what circumstances she rejoins the other characters, and whom she meets again.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

i don't think arya will change much more from where she is now. but of course that's a big change from where she was. a tomboy is one thing, a murderer is another.

i don't see her remaining with the faceless men or completing their course. she is too much of a stark for that. but i think she will always be able to kill and will become quite the avenger when she returns to westeros. i think she'll be a major player in the last book.

what i do wonder about is her connection to gendry. they've already bonded and forged a strong connection. i sort of expect it to continue when she returns but at the same time, i can't see her marrying him and settling down. that's where i'm not sure what will happen.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I really have no idea. If Arya basically gets a happy ending, rejoining her family and all, I do see her settling down with Gendry, why not? But if she gets more of a tragic ending, dying while or after killing whomever, then of course not. I really have no idea where GRRM is going with her story. The most common theory seems to be that sooner or later the Faceless Men will send Arya to kill someone and that's how she'll rejoin the other characters, but we'll see if that's what happens and if yes, how.

[direwolfdragon.livejournal.com]

I'd love to have a reunion between Arya and Nymeria. They seem to have taken the same path in regards to violence, if you take the mention of a large wolf causing trouble in Westeros as being Nymeria, as I do. Would be very interesting- would they team up and Nymeria remain at Arya's side as she continues her quest for revenge against those who have wronged her and those she cares about or would it take the path of a struggle between them where Arya struggles against Nymeria as a way to claim her 'humanity'. I truly hope that it isn't the latter, I would be severely disappointed in GRRM.

[alcanis-ivennil.livejournal.com]

Cersei deserves slapping because she's an insufferable bitch. And Joff deserves slapping too. At least Robert feels bad about it.

Robb killing Karstark was stupid. He should've sent him to the Wall. Also, beheadinhg =/= burning alive.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Heh, I get slapping Cersei, definitely. ;)

True about the beheading =/= burning. I took issue with the burning "innocent" people. Yeah, no, not all of them.

[alcanis-ivennil.livejournal.com]

At least Stannis never burned Davos. He's his Morality Pet.

Mirri... well, she was sort of right in the vengeance project, but killing an unborn child of the woman who tried to help you is still mean.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I think Stannis killing Davos is the one thing I could not forgive him for.

Nah, I was perfectly fine with what Mirri did. We see it from Daenerys' POV, so obviously we take her side at first, but thinking about it I really have no qualms with what Mirri did. She didn't just to it for vengeance, but also because she believed in the whole "Stallion that mounts the world" prophecy and was sure that Daenerys' son would be even worse than Drogo.

[alcanis-ivennil.livejournal.com]

Hope he will never. If he wants to keep my sympathy.

And the other way around, neither. Only in the worst case it Stannis is a wight, but that should not happen.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Yep, I'm gonna be mad if GRRM has Stannis go dark side. I want, if anything, one of the apparent heroes to turn sorta evil, not the guy who was set up as somewhat villainous from the start.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

I want, if anything, one of the apparent heroes to turn sorta evil

martin's hinted it might be jon. he said jon's action will become more and more grey in the next story.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know, but Jon never struck me as particularly heroic in the first place. But I know that's just because I never paid attention to him until the end of ASOS. ;) I'm still on team "evil Targaryens and evil dragons", but I'll take Darth Jon over Darth Stannis any day. I just kind of want Stannis and Jon on the same side.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

really? you never thought of jon as heroic? gosh he's been set up as the underdog-morph-into-superman character since his introduction.

i doubt very seriously that dany will turn evil. it goes against all we've been shown about her. i don't know enough about aegon, though. it would be a nice twist considering varys "thinks" he's groomed aegon to be the perfect king. wouldn't it be ironic if he becomes a sadistic evil tyrant because it's genetic? i'm thinking of all the nature vs. nurture arguments.

ok, that's probably too twisted. i'll go back to thinking normally.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Rationally i know that, I just slept through his chapters in the first books. ;)

Daenerys just strikes me as the kind of person who could easily turn batshit insane evil while still thinking she's doing the right thing. Hell, she's basically destroyed the entire economy and society of several cities for what she thought were good reasons. I doubt GRRM is cool enough to pull that off, but I'd love it. It helps that Daenerys is a POV character, i.e. we're supposed to be sympathetic to her and don't expect her to turn bad.
Nah, I'd hate for Aegon to be a bad guy, because that would just turn him into another obstacle for Daenerys to defeat,and that'd be just cheap.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

its just the groomed to be the perfect king by being forced to wash your own clothes theory that varys had. i mean i understand what he meant by it but i feel like aegon's upbringing was hollow and in a vacuum despite whatever lessons he was meant to learn. but since his nurture was so thought out, i think it would be kind of cool if his nature still wins out in the end. after all, the targs are known for going crazy.

that's all. but i do wonder how they will unite, if they do. the fact that there is no knowledge of the other will mean they are complete strangers. who will want to give up their shot at the throne for a complete stranger?

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Haha, I get you, it's one of the reasons I want batshit crazy Daenerys. ^^ Mostly, though, I want Aegon to be real because I want Daenerys to have to face the fact that she is not the legitimate Targaryen heir (Rhaegar's son would come before Rhaegar's sister). That might make for an interseting twist, but I doubt GRRM is going for that kind of conflict. It's more likely that either Aegon turns out to be fake and/or dies soon, or that they'll be allies and marry.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

and as for dany, i actually don't think martin means to show that she means well and things still go wrong. i think its meant to show that you're not a born ruler, you have to learn to rule. which means mistakes will be made. costly mistakes. ossos is meant to be her teacher, imo.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Well, it'S kind of not cool to use an entire continent with real people and all just so our speshul Targaryen princess can learn how to be a ruler. Also, I don't really see her learning anything. But I think we've established that we disagree a lot about Daenerys. *shrug*

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

speshul Targaryen princess

you're funny :)

i agree its not cool to use an entire continent as a testing ground. martin used to say over and over again how much he loved lord of the rings but that at the end when aragorn is made king, we have no idea what sort of king he would be so it doesn't surprise me that he would show people (not just dany) making huge blunders as they figure out how to rule. but let's face it - they're the other people, not the beloved people of westoros.

i think most people are not upset about the increasing death toll of daenerys' lessons because they are not westerners. how many fans have complained about characters with names they can't pronounce. (let's not mention that most fantasy books feature names that are not common) i think martin does that so we won't mind them being roasted or sliced or whatever. we're meant to not be as connected to them.

and to keep people from screaming racism as well as keep dany on the side of good, he has her fight to free people. its kind of smart as it brings up so many other points he wants to make - shows how fragile economies can be, shows how difficult it is to fully understand another's culture, shows that while we may not agree with a culture we don't necessarily have the right to interfere, shows how rulers have to compromise even when they don't want to, gives her opportunity to grow, etc.

i think this is also another way for grrm to show that doing the right thing isn't always right. no one would openly say not to do anything about slaves if you could, yet abolishing slavery (something we all agree is bad) in essos had unbelievable consequences (which i don't think we would have anticipated).